“It’s getting better all the time”, Lennon/McCartney
Now also here: “The ultimate liberation movement- Our exodus from an animal past to freedom in a human future”
“From Retaliation to Unconditional love- the story of humanity’s exodus/liberation from animal existence to become human.”
The link…. http://www.wendellkrossa.com/?p=9809
The next one- Grok, the other night I asked you:
“Grok, could you please summarize the main themes on this site for visitors, to give them some sense of what topics/issues they will find covered here?”
http://www.wendellkrossa.com/
Now, how about summarizing the main points in this article just below (linked) to fill out more on our grand overall story. This has to do with alleviating fear and encouraging hope based on the evidence of the big background story of reality and life.
Three great emergences, three grand trajectories… the exodus to ultimate human liberation (with Grok and Chat evaluations)
http://www.wendellkrossa.com/?p=14623#more-14623
My posting this is to point to sound evidence that provides a good basis for hope in the big background story of reality and life. That no matter what happens in our individual stories, we are part of something much bigger that is gradually getting better and not declining toward something worse.
The fallacy of declinism, an essential element of apocalyptic mythology (i.e. life declining toward catastrophic ending), has dominated mythology across history and continues to dominate the secular ideologies of our modern era, notably Marxism, Nazism, and environmental alarmism (Sources: Arthur Herman in “The Idea of Decline in Western History”, also James Tabor in “Paul and Jesus”, Richard Landes in “Heaven on Earth”, among others).
Decline of reality, life, and civilization toward something worse, toward apocalyptic ending, is a fallacy that contributes to unnecessary anxiety, fear, depression, nihilism, and renders populations susceptible to suicidal salvation schemes like Net Zero decarbonization, a modern variant on the age-old apocalyptic lunacy.
The true nature/trajectory of our big background story reorients us away from long-instilled primal fears that are incited by archetypes of the human subconscious, archetypes that were long ago shaped by, for example, myths of gods behind the natural world punishing humanity for sins.
If all three grand emergences and trajectories are improving, then that evidence overturns threat theology entirely. It especially exposes apocalyptic as a great lie and distortion of reality and life.
As noted above, divine threat has been most prominently expressed in mythologies of gods punishing human failure through natural disaster, disease, accidents, predatory cruelty (human and animal), etc. Threat theology is then epitomized in myths of divine intervention to destroy the world through apocalypse and to further continue the violent destruction in eternal hells.
The discovery that the natural realm and its emergences and trajectories do not affirm decline toward apocalypse should push us to then question, rethink, and challenge the most basic archetypes supporting such primitive mythology, to reconsider the theology of the God of “eye for eye” retaliation and destruction. Just as Jesus rejected that most basic image of God to reveal his entirely new view of deity as unconditional love (“There must be no more eye for eye retaliation but instead love your enemies because God does, giving sun and rain to all inclusively and equally”).
That was the transformation of human understanding of the very core of reality and life. It was an entirely new perspective on the most fundamental form of “evidence” on which to base authentic hope. And that revolutionary transformation of core reality (i.e. from retaliatory threat theology to no conditions love) sparks the real liberation of human consciousness, minds, and narratives. That transformation of thinking then radiates out to re-orient emotions and reshape motivations and behavior. It defuses human susceptibility to “salvation through destruction” crusades and ruinous outcomes.
Added note: All three trends/trajectories have unfolded by processes of “gradualism”, even though punctuated by episodes of sudden alteration. See Arthur Mendel’s good comment in “Vision and Violence” on gradualism, for example, in the development of liberal democracy civilization. Human society functions best and progresses most safely according to principles of universal inclusion, non-domination, and non-destruction.
Point? Beware the validation of crusades of revolutionary violence and coercion (i.e. use of overwhelming coercive force) based on archetypes of intervening deity that uses overwhelming power and force to violently and suddenly change life. That theology has long validated human crusades to similarly use overwhelming force and violence to instantaneously change societies. It was the apocalyptic millennialism that drove Marxist revolutions as well as the Nazi apocalyptic crusade.
The theology that is used to validate such crusades is that of a God who comes down, enraged, to destroy and purge the world and who demands that his true believers join him in the battle to destroy and purge his enemies from the world. That intervening and overpowering deity will then instantaneously install his promised utopia. Examples of this validating theology: The instantly restored perfection of the Christian millennial kingdom as illustrated in Revelation. Or the Islamic Caliphate installed worldwide through violent jihad as in the Iranian theocratic version. Or the restoration of a natural paradise world, as per environmental alarmism narratives, that is to be installed through the urgent and coercive overthrow of industrial civilization (i.e. “urgent” due to exaggerated claims of “existential and imminent threat to life” from human prosperity and enjoyment of the good life in modern civilization).
Note again Harold Ellens statements on the human validation of the use of coercive violence based on images of a similarly coercive and violent God. I have often posted Christian psychologist Ellen’s comments here as helpful to understanding how people base their behavior on their beliefs. Add to this that the deity described by Ellens not only validates violence in general, but violence in the use of overwhelming force to effect immediate change.
Ellens: “Beliefs do exert much more influence over our lives than simple ideas… Basic cultural beliefs are so important, especially in a dominant widespread culture, because they have the same properties as individual basic beliefs, that is, they are not perceived as questionable…
“There is in Western culture a psychological archetype, a metaphor that has to do with the image of a violent and wrathful God… Such a metaphor of an angry God, who cannot forgive unless appeased by a bloody sacrifice, has been ‘right at the center of the Master Story of the Western world for the last 2,000 years. And the unavoidable consequence for the human mind is a strong tendency to use violence’…
“’With that kind of metaphor at our center, and associated with the essential behavior of God, how could we possibly hold, in the deep structure of our unconscious motivations, any other notion of ultimate solutions to ultimate questions or crises than violence- human solutions that are equivalent to God’s kind of violence’…
“As Harold Ellens says, ‘If your God uses force, then so may you, to get your way against your ‘enemies’.”
Mendel counters the theology/ideology of coercive overwhelming force to effect change, with good argument and illustration that the development of liberal democracy proceeds best (most safely and peacefully) through “gradualism”, through a long gradual process of mistakes, learning, discovering better alternatives, etc. Gradualism is shaped by the use of reason, persuasion, compromise, inclusion. True liberal democracy.
Bob Brinsmead adds this to illustrate the non-coercive reality of a God who creates the material realm and life and lets gradualism play out over long time frames. He notes that this God did not reveal to people millennia ago how to solve the diseases that have killed millions of humans across our history. People had to suffer the horrors of disease and out of desperation and love become motivated to explore, create, invent solutions, to eventually alleviate and end the brutality of life without medicines.
Modern medicine is the outcome of a long struggle with human suffering and endless endeavor to find solutions. It was another element in the process of gradualism.
Apocalyptic types refuse to suffer the slowness of gradualism and demand the instantaneous purification and transformation of life and society. That requires resort to coercion and even violence.
The three great emergences and trajectories (reality, life, civilization) are long-term processes of gradualism and, as Bob Brinsmead is also pointing out in his latest work on a “A better theology for a new millennium”, God operates from within not from without the material realm, life, or humanity. There is no God who intervenes, occasionally, in reality or life. God is “incarnated” as the creating Source of all, and most especially incarnated in humanity.
There has never been an absent God, absent from human suffering and our struggle to solve problems. God has always been immediately and equally present which each human person, closer than our own atoms or breath, inseparable from our common human spirit. Present in all human rage at evil and injustice and struggle to make life better. The everywhere present deity motivates us with the gentle persuasion of no conditions love that respects individual freedom of choice.
This new theology is the powerful counter to the impulse to dominate and control, to intervene with overwhelming coercive force and violence. There is no “lording over” others in this new theology.
(End of my query to Grok)
Grok reply:
The article presents an optimistic “meta-narrative” of cosmic, biological, and human progress as evidence for hope, countering fear-based “declinism” and apocalyptic thinking. It argues that long-term trajectories in reality, life, and civilization show gradual improvement toward greater complexity, organization, humaneness, and liberation— affirming that “it’s going to be alright, ultimately,” despite short-term setbacks. wendellkrossa.com
The Three Great Emergences and Their Trajectories
The core framework identifies three major emergences, each following an overall upward trajectory:
1. The Cosmos (Material Reality): From the Big Bang onward, toward greater order and complexity.
2. Biological Life on Earth: Evolving toward more complex and organized forms over time.
3. Human Civilization: Humanity’s “exodus” from animal-like brutality (tribalism, domination, retaliatory destruction) toward mature humanity defined by universal inclusion, protected individual freedoms (via classical liberalism and liberal democracy), and restorative justice rooted in unconditional love, including love of enemies. wendellkrossa.com
These trajectories include valleys and temporary downturns (as seen in trend graphs), but the fundamental direction is improvement and progress. This is framed as driven by a core “goodness or love” at the heart of reality— whether understood theistically (a creating/sustaining Spirit incarnated in the world and humanity) or naturalistically. Progress unfolds through gradualism (incremental learning, reason, persuasion, compromise, and inclusion) rather than sudden coercive interventions. wendellkrossa.com
Human Story as Hero’s Quest and Exodus
Human civilization is portrayed as a collective hero’s journey: confronting inner “monsters” (inherited animal impulses), suffering, learning, and emerging transformed.
Key markers of maturity include:
• Overcoming tribalism via universal human family (e.g., shared ancestry, oneness insights).
• Rejecting domination through checks on power, rule of law, reduced government overreach, and individual self-determination.
• Replacing retaliation/vengeance with restorative approaches (while still protecting society, e.g., incarcerating repeat violent offenders). wendellkrossa.com
This aligns with thinkers like Solzhenitsyn (the real battle is internal, good vs. evil in every heart) and draws on evidence from progress researchers (e.g., declining violence trends noted by Pinker).
Critique of Declinism and Threat Theology
The piece strongly opposes the “fallacy of declinism”— the idea that life/civilization is inevitably declining toward catastrophe. This archetype, rooted in ancient apocalyptic mythology (punitive gods, sin, judgment, destruction, and salvation via purge), persists in secular forms like certain versions of Marxism, Nazism, and environmental alarmism. It fosters unnecessary fear, anxiety, nihilism, and susceptibility to coercive “salvation through destruction” schemes (e.g., revolutionary violence or extreme Net Zero policies). wendellkrossa.com
It contrasts this with the Historical Jesus’ transformation: rejecting “eye for an eye” retaliatory theology for a God of unconditional love (sun and rain on all equally; love your enemies). This shift— from threat and domination to non-retaliatory love— is presented as humanity’s deepest liberation, reshaping consciousness, emotions, motivations, and behavior away from violence and control. wendellkrossa.com
Supporting ideas include Harold Ellens on how images of a violent God validate human violence, and Arthur Mendel’s arguments for gradualism in liberal democracy over coercive upheaval. A “better theology” sees God as immanent (“incarnated” within creation and humanity), present in our struggles, motivating through gentle persuasion rather than lording over or intervening destructively. wendellkrossa.com
Overall Purpose and Tone
The article aims to alleviate primal fears, defuse apocalyptic impulses, and encourage hope grounded in evidence of improvement. It promotes inner liberation through a new narrative of unconditional goodness, human potential, and purposeful progress.
Evaluations from Grok and ChatGPT (included in the post) praise it as a radical, coherent counter to fear-based ideologies, offering psychological/spiritual oxygen and a liberating meta-story. wendellkrossa.com
In context of your site’s broader themes, this piece fleshes out the “big background story” as fundamentally benevolent and progressive, empowering people to reject declinist myths and engage constructively in gradual, humane improvement— regardless of personal trials. It emphasizes evidence-based optimism without denying imperfections or the need for ongoing struggle.
Next on Grok’s concluding suggestions:
How about- “Explore Arthur Herman’s decline theory” and “Concise summary of the three emergences”.
Grok’s further response:
Arthur Herman’s “The Idea of Decline in Western History” (1997) is a key historical and intellectual survey of declinism— the persistent belief that Western (and often human) civilization is irreversibly deteriorating, heading toward collapse or degeneration.
Herman traces this idea as a coherent ideology of cultural pessimism that has shaped Western thought for over a century, influencing politics, culture, and movements from the 19th century onward. goodreads.com
Key Elements of Herman’s Analysis
• Roots and Development: Declinism draws from ancient sources but crystallized in the modern era amid industrialization, Darwinian ideas, and social changes. Herman examines thinkers like Nietzsche, Freud, Spengler, Toynbee, Sartre, Foucault, and others, plus cultural figures and movements (e.g., Fabian socialists, multiculturalists, counterculture). goodreads.com
Two Main Strands:
• Historical Pessimism: “We’re doomed” — civilization is in inevitable decay due to natural cycles, loss of vitality, or external forces.
• Cultural Pessimism: “We deserve to be doomed” — Western civilization is morally corrupt, oppressive, or degenerate, often due to its own successes (e.g., rationality, capitalism, technology) or inherent flaws like inequality or environmental impact. This version can justify radical responses. goodreads.com
Themes and Impacts: Herman links declinism to fears of racial/cultural degeneration, loss of traditional values, over-civilization leading to weakness, and later environmental or postmodern critiques. It appears in literature (e.g., Dracula as metaphor), psychology, and politics (e.g., influencing extremes on left and right). The book critiques how this mindset became embedded in the modern imagination, despite evidence of progress in many areas. nytimes.com
Herman’s work is often cited as a strong counter to apocalyptic or declinist narratives (as in Krossa’s usage), showing how pessimism about decline has been a recurring but not inevitable feature of Western thought. It complements optimists like Steven Pinker or Julian Simon by historicizing the idea of decline itself.
Concise Summary of the Three Emergences (per Krossa)
Krossa frames these as the foundational, improving realities that reveal a core of goodness/love and support hope against declinism:
1. Cosmos (Material Reality/Universe): Emergence from the Big Bang into an ordered, expanding, increasingly complex physical reality. Long-term trajectory: greater organization and structure over cosmic time scales.
2. Biological Life on Earth: Emergence and evolution of life from simple forms to highly complex, diverse, and organized organisms/ecosystems. Trajectory: increasing complexity, adaptability, and sophistication despite extinctions and challenges.
3. Human Civilization: Emergence of conscious human societies and their development as an “exodus” from pre-human/animal brutality (tribalism, domination, retaliatory violence).
Trajectory: toward greater humaneness—universal inclusion (one human family), protected individual freedoms (via liberal democracy, rule of law), reduced violence, and ethics centered on unconditional love/restorative justice. Progress occurs through gradualism, learning, and inner struggle (hero’s quest), despite setbacks. wendellkrossa.com
Overall Point in Krossa’s Framework: All three show net upward trends in complexity, order, and improvement (with inevitable imperfections and valleys). This evidences purpose, hope, and a benevolent core to reality, overturning threat-based apocalyptic myths and encouraging gradual, non-coercive human progress. It ties directly to Herman’s critique by providing empirical/historical counter-evidence to declinist ideologies. Together, these elements reinforce a narrative of long-term optimism grounded in evidence rather than denial of problems.
Grok, the other night I asked you:
“Grok, could you please summarize the main themes on this site for visitors, to give them some sense of what topics/issues they will find covered here?”
http://www.wendellkrossa.com/
Now, how about summarizing the main points in this article just below (linked) and add how this liberation from the animal to become human also applies at the individual level as per Solzhenitsyn’s statement on the real battle of good against evil.
“From Retaliation to Unconditional love- the story of humanity’s exodus/liberation from animal existence to become human.”
The link…. http://www.wendellkrossa.com/?p=9809
Grok replied:
The article traces humanity’s “exodus/liberation from animal existence to become authentically human,” centering on the shift from retaliation (a core animal impulse) to unconditional love as the foundational human story. wendellkrossa.com
Core Narrative: From Animal Impulses to Human Ideals
Krossa argues that early humans projected primal animal behaviors— retaliation/payback, domination, tribal exclusion, and fear-driven responses— onto the divine or ultimate reality. This created destructive mythologies, especially apocalyptic themes (e.g., angry gods punishing “sinful” humanity through destruction, a fall from paradise, required sacrifices for atonement, and eventual restoration). These ideas originated in primitive logic (gods/spirits behind natural forces, so disasters = divine anger) and persisted through religions and secular ideologies like declinism and environmental alarmism. wendellkrossa.com
• Retaliation sacralized violence: Gods modeled payback, validating human vengeance, punishment systems, and “salvation through destruction” (purging evil to restore paradise). This fueled guilt, fear, priestly control, wasteful sacrifices, and real-world harm (e.g., historical religious violence, modern movements like certain environmental crusades framed as appeasing an “angry” planet).
• The liberation: The breakthrough insight— unconditional love as the true nature of ultimate reality (supported by Near-Death Experience accounts of an overwhelming, non-conditional divine love)— overturns all this. It rejects conditions, threats, exclusion, and retaliation. No angry deity needs appeasement; no “fall” separates us; imperfection doesn’t demand punishment. This frees minds from primal fears, guilt, and despair, enabling truly humane behavior. wendellkrossa.com
Unconditional love reorients ethics, justice (restraint with mercy/restorative focus over pure payback), and society. It promotes creativity, progress, and evidence-based optimism (e.g., Julian Simon-style views: human ingenuity improves life long-term, counters apocalyptic panic like exaggerated “climate crisis” narratives). The article critiques how old myths distort progress (industrial civilization as “evil” destroyer) while ignoring benefits like reduced disaster deaths and greening. wendellkrossa.com
Practical application isn’t naive pacifism: Protect the innocent (restrain harm-doers), teach consequences, seek restitution, and balance ideals with messy reality— but always lean toward mercy, empathy, and positive affirmation over fear/punishment. It applies in daily small acts, not just grand events. wendellkrossa.com
Connection to the Individual Level and Solzhenitsyn
This collective human story of liberation directly scales to the individual. The real “exodus” from animal impulses (retaliation, domination, tribal “us vs. them”) happens one person at a time, in the heart and daily choices. wendellkrossa.com
Solzhenitsyn’s famous insight from The Gulag Archipelago captures this perfectly: “Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either— but right through every human heart— and through all human hearts. This line shifts. Inside us, it oscillates with the years. And even within hearts overwhelmed by evil, one small bridgehead of good is retained. And even in the best of all hearts, there remains an un-uprooted small corner of evil.” solzhenitsyncenter.org
Krossa’s framework echoes this: The battle isn’t primarily external (good tribes vs. evil enemies, or purging “others” for utopia). It’s internal— confronting our own residual animal impulses (fear, retaliation, conditional exclusion) rather than externalizing all evil. Unconditional love as the ideal helps each person “destroy a piece of his own heart” (the vengeful, fearful, or dominating parts) to become more fully human. This personal transformation— liberating one’s mind from old myths and fears— drives broader societal progress and prevents repeating cycles of “salvation through destruction.” wendellkrossa.com
In short, the article presents unconditional love not as abstract theology but as the most powerful tool for ongoing humanization: freeing individuals from inherited darkness so humanity as a whole can leave animal existence behind. It ties into the site’s broader themes of better narratives, evidence-based hope, and rejecting fear-mongering for creative, humane flourishing.
On Grok’s follow-up suggestions:
All three would be good- Explore Near-Death Experience evidence for unconditional love
Investigate Julian Simon’s optimistic population views
Rewrite to emphasize Solzhenitsyn’s internal battle connection
Grok reply:
Here is a rewritten summary of the article’s main points, with stronger emphasis on the Solzhenitsyn connection, plus the two explorations you requested. wendellkrossa.com
Rewritten Article Summary: Humanity’s Exodus from Animal to Human, with the Internal Battle at Its Core
The article frames humanity’s foundational story as an ongoing exodus/liberation from animal existence (marked by retaliation, domination, tribal exclusion, and fear-driven survival impulses) toward becoming authentically human, defined by unconditional love.
Early humans projected primal behaviors onto gods and ultimate reality, birthing destructive apocalyptic myths: angry deities punishing “sinful” people, a fall from paradise, required sacrifices for atonement, and a coming purge to restore order. These ideas— rooted in primitive logic linking natural disasters to divine wrath— persisted across religions and secular ideologies (e.g., declinism, certain environmental alarmism framing human progress as defiling nature and demanding “sacrifice” via de-industrialization). wendellkrossa.com
This mythology sacralized retaliation, fueling guilt, fear, priestly control, violence, and “salvation through destruction” cycles. The liberating breakthrough is the insight (echoed in Near-Death Experiences) that ultimate reality is unconditional love— non-retaliatory, inclusive, and without conditions or threats. This overturns old fears, rejects appeasement/sacrifice systems, and frees minds for creative, evidence-based progress (e.g., industrial civilization’s benefits in reducing disaster deaths and enabling adaptation). Unconditional love reorients justice toward protection with mercy, restorative approaches, and daily humane interactions. wendellkrossa.com
At the heart of this liberation is the individual internal battle, powerfully illuminated by Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn: “Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either— but right through every human heart— and through all human hearts. This line shifts… And even within hearts overwhelmed by evil, one small bridgehead of good is retained. And even in the best of all hearts, there remains an un-uprooted small corner of evil.” solzhenitsyncenter.org
The collective human story succeeds only through personal transformation. The real exodus isn’t primarily about fighting external “evil enemies” or purging outsiders for utopia (a recurring trap of old myths). It’s the daily, internal struggle within each heart to confront and diminish our residual animal impulses— retaliation, conditional exclusion, fear, and domination— while nurturing the “bridgehead of good.” Unconditional love serves as the ideal and tool for this personal work: it liberates individuals from guilt, despair, and old mythic programming, enabling more humane responses that ripple outward. As Solzhenitsyn implies, who is willing to “destroy a piece of his own heart”? This internal victory, repeated across individuals, drives authentic humanization and breaks cycles of societal harm. wendellkrossa.com
The article ties this to optimism: better narratives grounded in evidence (human ingenuity solving problems) counter apocalyptic fear-mongering and support progress.
1. Near-Death Experience (NDE) Evidence for Unconditional Love
NDEs frequently report encounters with an overwhelming presence of unconditional love, often described as a brilliant Light or Being that radiates acceptance beyond words. Common elements include: med.virginia.edu
• A profound sense of being enveloped in pure, nonjudgmental love that feels like “coming home.” People describe it as deeper than any earthly affection— undiscriminating, unearned, and independent of one’s actions, beliefs, or failings. “I felt completely bathed and renewed… no matter what!” is a typical refrain. reallove.com
• Encounters with deceased relatives or a loving Being that conveys total forgiveness and belonging, often dissolving guilt or fear of judgment.
• Transformative aftereffects: reduced fear of death, increased compassion, sense of oneness, and a lasting shift toward living with more love and less conditional judgment. Many report life reviews emphasizing love’s centrality over achievements or mistakes. bps.org.uk
Research (e.g., from the University of Virginia’s Division of Perceptual Studies and various studies) shows these features are consistent across cultures, though interpreted through personal/religious lenses. While NDEs are subjective, their vividness, consistency, and measurable life impacts (e.g., verified details in some cases, profound personality changes) are cited as suggestive evidence for consciousness beyond the brain and a loving ultimate reality. Skeptics point to neurological explanations (e.g., brain chemistry under stress), but experiencers insist the love felt “more real than real” and inexpressible in ordinary terms. frontiersin.org
This aligns with the article’s use of NDEs as a potent tool against primal fears: an unconditional divine love invalidates conditional religion and threat-based myths. wendellkrossa.com
2. Julian Simon’s Optimistic Population Views
In The Ultimate Resource (1981, updated as The Ultimate Resource 2), economist Julian Simon challenged Malthusian and environmentalist pessimism. His core thesis: Humans are the ultimate resource— not a burden, but creators who solve problems through ingenuity, adaptation, and innovation. en.wikipedia.org
Key arguments:
• Resources are not finite in any meaningful economic sense: As scarcity raises prices, incentives emerge to find more, use efficiently, recycle, or develop substitutes. Long-term trends show resources becoming more abundant (e.g., falling real prices over time), contrary to doomsday predictions.
• Population growth is a net positive: More people mean more minds— more problem-solvers, inventors, and creators. They produce more than they consume, drive knowledge growth, and bequeath a richer world to future generations. Simon estimated Earth could support far more people without collapse. ebsco.com
• Evidence-based optimism: Look at long-term trends (not short-term anecdotes). Human progress— via markets, freedom, and creativity— has improved living standards, reduced scarcity, and enhanced environmental quality in wealthier societies. He famously won a bet against Paul Ehrlich: prices of key metals fell in the 1980s despite population growth. fee.org
Simon’s views counter apocalyptic “declinism” by emphasizing that human spirit and imagination, unleashed in free systems, turn challenges into opportunities. This fits the article’s call for better narratives celebrating progress over fear. wendellkrossa.com
These elements reinforce the article’s message: unconditional love liberates the human spirit internally, while evidence of ingenuity (Simon) shows our potential for external flourishing. Let me know if you’d like deeper dives or expansions!