See below notes on Plato’s influence on Paul and his Christ myth- This world just a shadow pointing to the Real.
As Grok added: “This Hellenistic lens, as you note, shifts the focus from improving the material world to preparing for an otherworldly salvation, influencing how Christians interpret scripture as a revelation of eternal truths over temporal concerns.”
This highlights another critical point of contradiction between the messages of Historical Jesus and Paul’s Christ myth gospel- i.e. that Jesus’ message was oriented to treating others humanely in this life (primary loyalty to people). And to the contrary, Paul’s Christ gospel orients people to worshipping and serving an otherworldly reality (primary loyalty to Paul’s Christ) and seeking salvation in otherworldly reality. That otherworldly reality takes precedence over human wellbeing here and now.
How has that worked out across history?
Consider– For example, Calvin putting fellow Christian theologian Servetus to slow death by burning at the stake for disagreeing over a doctrinal statement in regard to the Christ (i.e. Servetus not willing to move an adjective three words over in a sentence). Calvin claimed that he had to honor his primary loyalty to the Christ before honoring the life of a fellow human being. He was obligated to defend the glory of God. Other Christians in Geneva, more oriented to the message of Jesus, argued with Calvin to honor Jesus’ statement to “love your enemy”.
Calvin, with his self-imposed priority loyalty to the Christ (and, in his words, motivated by related biblical commands to “put the false prophet to death”), would not let himself be moved by the love of enemies advocated by Historical Jesus. And then there was the “knowing the terror of the Lord” element motivating Calvin. Paul had warned in his Thessalonian, Romans, and other letters that anyone not giving priority loyalty to his Christ myth would suffer the wrath of God and eternal hell (i.e. “Lord Jesus will return in blazing fire to punish/destroy all who don’t believe my Christ myth”). Exactly what punishment? John graphically presents the details in Revelation to top off the New Testament Christology… i.e. Christ trampling out “the fury of the wrath of God” that ends with tossing unbelievers into the lake of fire.
Don’t dismiss such messaging as just “metaphorical”. The content is still the same as if literal, as an Islamic commentator argued in his Huffington Post article years ago, referring to the many verses in the Quran that state an angry God will cast unbelievers into the fires of hell. The commentator was poohpoohing the attempts of Islamic theologians to downplay all the threat of hellfire as somehow less impactful because it can be viewed as “metaphor”. Christian theologians play the same game with the nastier stuff in the Bible.
But try that with your children as your read, for example, Revelation 19 to them for beddy-bye “devotional” time.
“Daddy, I’m scared of that monster”.
“Don’t be scared honey. Its just metaphor.”
Returning to the point above- Loyalty to beliefs, before loyalty to real people and their needs, has produced an endless river of human blood across history. Bad theological/Christological ideas have motivated some of the worst cruelty ever. As Bob Brinsmead has said, men never do worse evil than when they do it in the name of God, when they place loyalty to some religious God over concern for human wellbeing. There has been endless mass-murder as people loyal to their belief systems have killed one another for disagreements over words, ideas/beliefs. Note, in this regard, the early Christian councils, crusades, inquisitions and witch hunts, religious wars, and more.
Most notably, bad ideas (religious ideas) motivated and validated Marxist and Nazi bloodshed.
This, again, is Bob’s point that when people place loyalty to something- i.e. loyalty to some belief system, institution, system of laws/rules, etc.- when they place their priority loyalty on such things then they end neglecting or harming people, neglecting the needs and well-being of real people and that has been the story of loyalty/dedication to the Christ myth across history, loyalty that has led to rivers of blood being shed.
Who wisely noted that the committed people aren’t civil, and the civil people aren’t committed?
More Saad truth from Gad,
“Dr. Eric Kaufmann-The Buckingham Manifesto for Post-Progressive Social Science (THE SAAD TRUTH_1878)”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGhqf5nW1iA
Saad and guest discuss Woke (and their books written on this) as the latest dominant ideology that activists are pushing on our societies (Woke is more a “religion” than an ideology, in Saad’s estimation). Woke has been undermining liberal democracies across the West. It has become the front of the new dominant ideology sweeping the world. And it is undermining the basic freedoms and rights of Classic Liberalism or liberal democracy.
I see behind this Woke crusade the same basic elements of the traditional collectivism of Marxism, notably in the DEI element where Wokesters have included the tribal dualism feature of dividing societies and humanity into two classes- i.e. either oppressed or oppressors, victims or victimizers. And people are now assigned their category or class according to skin color which is the new “Woke Racism” (John McWhorter), the new discrimination. The old categorization criteria also remain in the mix, people classed according to amount of property ownership and demonized as oppressors if they are too successful (i.e. the “evil” oppression of people who are too wealthy, as in the evil of “big business” versus small business).
So, it’s helpful to be up-to-date on these crusades as they struggle to dominate in our societies. Woke has ruined numerous lives of people who have dissented from this ideology. Woke is the new bullying or totalitarianism, the new affirmation of the old “elite/commoner” divide in society.
Populism, which has been smeared as “Right-wing” extremism (and yes, it has elements of this), is actually a new more general commoner pushback against elite domination, against the elite/commoner divide that Woke activists are trying to re-establish. Power-mongering elites are trying to dominate others coercively using state agencies/institutions (i.e. Hegel’s advocacy and Marx’s use of the state to dominate and control us “ignorant” commoners who don’t know what is best for ourselves and need to be controlled by elites).
Woke elitism presents the latest re-incarnation of Plato’s “philosopher kings”. This is the same old element of earlier forms of Marxist collectivism with its “enlightened vanguards” of revolutionaries who felt nobly inspired to lead the ignorant masses into liberation from the evils of private property. Private property was Marx’s number one evil that he felt obligated to free humanity from in order for the inherent collectivist/communalist human to emerge in revived form, the true human in his ideology.
Saad and guest discuss the creation of new educational institutions and forums for education, along with new journals, to replace those that have been coopted by far-leftist Woke Progressives and need an alternative.
Kaufmann’s book “The Third Awokening” on the origins of Woke (he argues that it began in the 60s). Saad’s latest is “Suicidal Empathy”, his take on the Woke virus.
Sitesplainin
To understand more of the background of Woke it helps to understand some basic elements of Marxism. I find it helpful to see communalism (e.g. Robert Owen) or collectivism/communism (Marx) as the core organizing principle where individuals are subjected to a collective that is run by elites who claim to operate the collective on behalf of the people or workers. That never happens as Kristian Niemietz has pointed out.
From Niemietz’s “Socialism: The Failed Idea That Never Dies”
“Socialism in the sense which self-identified democratic socialists define it… a democratized economic planned collectively by ‘the people’, has never been achieved anywhere and could not be achieved. Economic planning can only ever be done in a technocratic, elitist fashion, and it requires an extreme concentration of power in the hands of the state. It cannot ‘empower’ ordinary workers. It can only ever empower bureaucratic elites.”
In collectivism, individual rights and freedoms are subjected to the “greater or common good” of the collective and that is where the deformity begins with centralization of power under the control of governing elites. Power is removed from common citizens (often via excessive taxation and regulation in liberal democracies).
Centralizing power and control in governing collective elites is where the totalitarian impulse is unleashed. That centralized power and control is validated as necessary for elites to achieve their vision of the common or greater good.
Good sources on the history and elements of these two approaches to organizing human society– collectivism versus the free individual:
“Heaven on Earth: The rise and fall of socialism”, Joshua Muravchik.
“Socialism: The failed idea that never dies”, Kristian Niemietz.
“The Cave and the Light: Plato versus Aristotle, and the struggle for the soul of Western Civilization”, Arthur Herman.
“Heaven on Earth: The varieties of the Millennial experience”, Richard Landes.
And the liberating alternative:
“Inventing Freedom: How the English-speaking peoples made the modern world”, Daniel Hannan.
Liberal democracy or Classic Liberalism- some personal defining, Wendell Krossa
The principles, systems of common law, and representative institutions created to protect the rights and freedoms of all individuals, equally. True liberalism is about state institutions/bureaucracies that exist to authentically “serve the people”, notably by maintaining a small state sector, decreasing the tax burden on citizens (i.e. returning the freedom of choice over assets back to citizens), and decreasing regulations (i.e. removing the power to intervene and meddle in citizen’s lives away from state bureaucracies, and granting more self-determination to individuals). To maintain and protect freedom there must be constant effort to redistribute power back to citizens and away from government, to counter the push of collectivists/socialists to centralize power and control in state bureaucracies.
Where there is no authentic freedom there is no love. Love and freedom are inseparably one- Bob Brinsmead.
This from the best at journalism- Matt Taibbi
“No doubt left: Russiagate was a cover-up: The most infuriatingly complex scandal of all time has just been reduced to a page or two, thanks to another declassified release”, Aug. 1, 2025
https://www.racket.news/p/no-doubt-left-russiagate-was-a-cover
Some quotes from Taibbi:
“Hillary Clinton got in a jam, and the FBI, CIA, and the Obama White House got her out of it by setting Trump up. That’s it. It was a cover-up, plain and simple:
“It wasn’t the start of a corruption story about Trump, but the cover-up of a still-unresolved Hillary Clinton scandal. This is purely a Clinton corruption story, probably the last in a long line, as neither Bill nor Hillary will have careers when it’s finished, if they stay out of jail.
“Characteristically, the most powerful political family since the Kennedys won’t just bring many individuals down with them, but whole institutions, as the FBI, the CIA, the presidency of Barack Obama, and a dozen or so of the most celebrated brands in commercial media will see their names blackened forever through association with this idiotic caper. A fair number of those media companies should (and likely will) go out of business.”
Taibbi adds that Special Counsel Durham had incriminating materials- “What you need to know: Russians had a pile of emails and correspondence involving “government agencies, non-profit organizations, and think-tanks based in the United States….
Most incriminating was the material the Russians had that, “possible preferential treatment of Clinton Foundation donors by the Department of State caused a “significant negative reaction” for Clinton within the party, and that Barack Obama was unwilling to “darken the final part of his presidency” with a scandal involving his successor…”
And this also from Taibbi, and colleague Kirn
“Transcript: America This Week, August 1, 2025: Durham declassified: History’s stupidest political conspiracy unmasked: Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama, the FBI, the CIA, and the news media are exposed as a conspiracy of dunces in another document release”, Matt Taibbi, Walter Kirn.
https://www.racket.news/p/transcript-america-this-week-august-45b
Some critical points in this episode: It appears that the effort to discredit Trump as a Russian asset actually predates his nomination. The Russian information on Hilary’s corruption predates the Democrats knowing who would win the Republican nomination. If it had been Ted Cruz, then it appears likely he may have been smeared as colluding with Russia in some way instead of Trump. The McCarthyite impulse predates Trump. It was to cover-up Hilary Clinton’s corrupt incompetence.
This again is a closer look at the dark underbelly of this unbelievable scale of corruption with a lot of detail that is now exposed from formerly secreted files and records. Things the main players actually said to one another and their actions taken are being exposed daily.
Note the revived McCarthyism through all this. And coming now from Democrats. A complete role reversal from the original 50s McCarthyism.
This sample from the link on the media’s part in all this….
“Walter Kirn: As they say, is it in the Declaration of Independence, “Invariably pursuing the same end,” or whatever, you know? And not only that, there is a suggestion or there is a whiff in what we just read of confidence in collusion with the media that is ominous for the media, frankly.
“Matt Taibbi: Yeah. Right. I mean, you can see the Russians assessing the [Russian], and the media are not really separate organs to them.
“Walter Kirn: And let’s look at this as a literary event for a moment, as I love to do. It’s just interesting to see Russia’s picture of the US. You know what I mean? Whether it’s true or not, whether they got everything right, whether their analysis is specifically correct, we, the people of the United States are increasingly seeing our own government in the way the Russians see our government.
“Matt Taibbi: Oh, yeah. Right.
“Walter Kirn: Their guys are just saying, “What took you so long, Americans? We always knew the press did the work of this, and they were infiltrated by these people, and they worked together with intelligence, and da, da, da, da-da-da. We always knew how your system worked. How come you don’t? Who’s been keeping you in the dark? Because it’s very plain from over here in Moscow how the United States works.” And so far, I’ve got to say, their attitude is not being degraded.”
This site deals extensively with the God factor in relation to the human impulse for meaning and purpose, Wendell Krossa
As I write often about the God element in our belief systems, I remember Bob Brinsmead’s repeated caution to be careful about speculating on anything related to God because our primary responsibility is living in this world and contributing to making life better here and now. This ought to be our primary focus in life. I agree with Bob generally that curiosity about the invisible ought to be downplayed- what in religion is known as “too much heavenly-mindedness that makes one of no earthly good”. We should focus on living in this here and now world and making a contribution to improving life in this world.
But we can’t ignore the God factor because we have inherited it, and it plays a role in the curiosity of most people (i.e. the 85% of humanity affiliated with a major world religion with most of the remaining 15% “unaffiliated” and still “spiritual but not religious”).
The God factor will always be an element of our fascination with ultimate reality and its nature, this meaning impulse that is fundamental to our human consciousness. We have to understand something of why we exist, for what purpose? Look at the fascination of science with TOE (Theory of Everything). Further, we recognize more now that what we have inherited (i.e. religious images of deity) distorts ultimate reality and has contributed to too much violence and destruction across history.
Deity images continue to function as humanity’s ultimate inciting, guiding, and validating embodiment of ideals. Add that the religious deities of history have validated the worst of our inherited animal impulses to tribalism, domination, and punitive destruction of enemies. So at the least we ought to clean up the mess that we have inherited and offer better, more humane alternatives that will inspire and validate the better impulses of our human spirit. Exchanging new theories of divinity for the old, will remove the highest validation of bad human behavior (again, Richard Landes, among others on the main beliefs validating Marxism, Nazism, environmental alarmism).
But then yes, set curiosity about the Invisible aside and get busy involved in this life enjoying all that humans experience and contributing to life, making our unique contribution to improving life for others.
There is no divine obligation to “love God, serve God, or have a relationship with an invisible Reality”. After all, if “God is love” then we understand that authentic love forgets itself to serve others, and will not demand constant attention, honor/praise, and subservient service (i.e. the fraudulent mythology of humanity “created to serve the gods”).
Further, Bob Brinsmead makes good comment on how Plato influenced Paul’s construction of his Christ. Paul ignored the focus of Jesus on the ethics of exhibiting love in daily life in this world. Paul’s Christ mythology focused human concern on salvation into another after-life realm, salvation achieved by embracing Paul’s demand to believe in his Christ (i.e. affirming the horrific belief in human sacrifice for atonement), bowing to the lordship and domination of his Christ, and subjecting ourselves to religious authorities and their religious threats (apocalypse, judgment, hell).
Such is what the Christ is all about- another critical deformity of the Jesus message and example in refocusing human consciousness away from Jesus’ emphasis on this life, away from his focus on exhibiting inclusion toward all others, including enemies, not tribal exclusion. In “the closest we get to what the man actually taught”- i.e. Q Wisdom Sayings, as in version Q1- we see Jesus focused on humane ethics in this life- i.e. unlimited generosity, forgiveness, and loving enemies with no focus on religious salvation into some other after-life realm.
I would add to Bob’s comments that our impulse for meaning and purpose is most humanely fulfilled when we love in this life, especially when we tackle the precept to “love the enemy”, whether under the influence of any God factor or not (i.e. atheism).
Bob Brinsmead expands on these arguments with his two latest essays (see also his Substack):
“The Historical Jesus: What the Scholars are Saying”
https://bobbrinsmead.com/the-historical-jesus-what-the-scholars-are-saying/
“The Doctrine of Christ and the Triumph of Hellenism”
https://bobbrinsmead.com/the-doctrine-of-christ-and-the-triump-of-hellenism/
Further note on Bob’s comments re Plato’s influence on Paul:
The point of Plato’s influence on Paul and his Christ, is that Plato focused human concern on the invisible Ideals/Forms as the “Real” and this world as one of just shadows of what is real. The things of this world are not real but just point to the real. Therefore Paul, following Plato, focuses human concern, human primary focus, on invisible otherworldly things and neglects to focus our primary concern on this world and improving this life.
Add here the belief that we are trapped, imprisoned in these “corrupt bodies” and need to be freed from them, liberated into invisible realms. Much like we live in “the cave” and need to be liberated into the real world outside our cave existence, into the realm of the real Forms/Ideals.
Hence, the Christian understanding has been, for example, that the Old Testament sacrifices are just shadows of the real Sacrifice of the Christ, pointing to the real cosmic reality and salvation into that reality. And that has determined how Christians read their bible, as a holy revelation that exposes this “corrupt world” of less real elements, and points us to be most concerned about what we should believe is the most real and important.
Again, this, among other elements, reveals/affirms the profound Hellenistic influence on Paul and his Christ myth.
Then Grok added this:
Your note elaborates on how Plato’s philosophy, particularly his Theory of Forms, may have shaped Paul’s theological framework and the broader Christian worldview. Plato’s emphasis on the eternal, immutable Forms as the ultimate reality, with the material world as a mere shadow or reflection, aligns with certain aspects of Pauline theology, such as the focus on spiritual salvation and the transcendence of the physical body. This Hellenistic influence is evident in Paul’s writings, where the temporal world is often contrasted with the eternal, divine realm—e.g., in 2 Corinthians 4:18, where he prioritizes “things that are unseen” over “things that are seen.”
The idea of the body as a “prison” for the soul, which you mention, resonates with Platonic thought (e.g., in Phaedo), where liberation from the material body is a step toward the true reality of the Forms. This parallels Paul’s depiction of the body as “corrupt” or mortal (e.g., Romans 7:24, 1 Corinthians 15:53) and his emphasis on spiritual resurrection into a divine, imperishable state. The Old Testament sacrifices being “shadows” of Christ’s ultimate sacrifice (as in Hebrews 10:1) further reflects this Platonic framework, where earthly rituals point to a higher, cosmic truth.
This Hellenistic lens, as you note, shifts the focus from improving the material world to preparing for an otherworldly salvation, influencing how Christians interpret scripture as a revelation of eternal truths over temporal concerns. While some scholars argue Paul’s Jewish roots (e.g., Pharisaic eschatology) also shaped his thought, the parallels with Plato’s dualism suggest a synthesis of Jewish and Hellenistic ideas in his Christology. For further exploration, you might consider how other Hellenistic philosophies, like Stoicism or Philo’s Middle Platonism, also intersect with Paul’s writings. If you’d like, I can search for specific discussions on X or the web to see how this topic is being debated today.
More on the “reform of religion” project: Wendell Krossa
There are varied reasons to maintain religious traditions- i.e. as community social clubs for like-minded people. However, religious traditions have failed utterly at communicating the true nature of ultimate reality, which they have claimed as their primary mission- i.e. representing God to humanity. And failing at that is to fail at the ultimate embodiment of human meaning in deity, and therefore failing to communicate the highest embodiment of human ideals to inspire, guide, and validate ethics, and so much more.
The outcomes of our great religious traditions, over history, have been too often violence-at-scale (mass-death), as Grok and I point out below. Along with, yes, inspiring a lot of human goodness. I would argue the goodness that religion inspires is from the scraps of wisdom sayings in the mix of their belief systems and holy books, scraps here and there, such as the better elements in the Jesus tradition. But unfortunately, the potential of that material to inspire goodness is often distorted and overwhelmed by the larger context with its bad religious ideas that dominate overall narratives.
Further, the good elements in the mix deal with features that are basic to the common human spirit, non-religious features like common forgiveness, inclusion, equality, and love. These are not inherently “religious” features, dependent in some manner on religious traditions that have also embraced them. Atheists exhibit the same features of our common human spirit aside from any element of required religious inspiration.
And the question remains: Why the mixed historical record of religion? It puts the responsibility on all of us to understand- What in the mix has inspired goodness in people and what has incited the undeniable bad that many have exhibited under the influence of their religious belief systems? Figure this out. Separate the diamonds from the dung (Jefferson). This is our basic responsibility as developing humans and fundamental to the expression of our impulse to meaning.
And don’t fearfully avoid the God element from your discernment of bad from good. Do as Jesus did and reject the threat theology that had long dominated human narratives and consciousness across previous history with its pathologies of deity as tribal, dominating, and punitively destroying. Do the basic work that we do in most other areas of life in discerning bad from good. Don’t continue protecting bad, even in deity, under “the canopy of the sacred”.
Again, probing the “Jesus versus Christ” issue, Wendell Krossa
It has to be asked because of the element of “intention”: Why bother with this great contradiction in Christianity and potentially upset true believers in Paul’s Christ? Well, critically, (responding to the personal “intention” issue) because we become just like the God that we believe in. If there are subhuman, anti-human features in our image of deity- the ultimate embodiment of human ideals- then that powerfully shapes how we think, feel, are motivated, and then respond/behave.
How do bad ideas deform human personality and society?
Psychologist Harold Ellens’ warned about the impact on human consciousness and life from holding the dominant image in Western civilization of an angry deity demanding bloody sacrifice for appeasement of anger (Paul’s theme in his letter to the Romans, the baseline idea or belief in his Christ gospel). Ellens states that if your God uses coercive violence to solve problems, to deal with enemies, then so may you. Again, we become just like the God that we believe in.
Ellens nails the psychology in this better than most…
Ellens states that “Beliefs… in the psychological sphere, generate ‘dynamis’, or mobilize energy… (they) may result, for instance, in fanaticism and violence, or… may also produce anxiety and inhibitions that hinder the full manifestation of the capacities of a person…”
He says that the Christian image of God has been so dominant in Western culture for two millennia that few people dare question it. He refers to the “psychological archetype, a metaphor that has to do with the image of a violent and wrathful God (see Romans, Revelation). Crystallized in Anselm’s juridical atonement theory, this image represents God sufficiently disturbed by the sinfulness of humanity that God had only two options: destroy us or substitute a sacrifice to pay for our sins. He did the latter. He killed Christ.”
Ellens explains further… “by stating that the crucifixion, a hugely violent act of infanticide or child sacrifice, has been disguised by Christian conservative theologians as a ‘remarkable act of grace’. Such a metaphor of an angry God, who cannot forgive unless appeased by a bloody sacrifice, has been ‘right at the center of the Master Story of the Western world for the last 2,000 years. And the unavoidable consequence for the human mind is a strong tendency to use violence’.
“’With that kind of metaphor at our center, and associated with the essential behavior of God, how could we possibly hold, in the deep structure of our unconscious motivations, any other notion of ultimate solutions to ultimate questions or crises than violence- human solutions that are equivalent to God’s kind of violence’…
“Hence, in our culture we have a powerful element that impels us to violence, a Cruel God Image… that also contributes to guilt, shame, and the impoverishment of personality…”
As Ellens concludes, “If your God uses force, then so may you, to get your way against your ‘enemies’”.
How has this ultimate ideal of threat theology worked over the last 2 millennia of our history? What has been the “test of the outcomes” of our dominant Western image of deity?
Central to Paul’s Christ mythology, framed in terms of divine love and grace, is the theme of “salvation through destruction” whether (1) in the murder of an innocent victim to achieve salvation- i.e. atoning human/child sacrifice, or (2) the required violent destruction of the corrupt world that exists, as in the apocalypse of the New Testament book of Revelation. That destruction is presented as necessary to clear the way to the installation of the utopian kingdom of God.
Serving as the ultimate metaphor in the “Master Story of Western civilization” for the past two millennia, the theme of “salvation through revolutionary Armageddon-scale destruction” notably shaped two highly destructive apocalyptic millennial crusades of the modern era- i.e. the Marxist and Nazi mass-death crusades. Those “profoundly religious” crusades added their death totals to the previous history of violent councils, crusades, and then centuries of inquisitions and murder of heretics and witches, as well as the European religious wars of the 16th and 17th Centuries.
The very same ideas/beliefs now incite and validate the ISIS/Hamas crusades of Islamic extremism to exterminate enemies, as necessary to achieve the installation of the utopian Caliphate. These contemporary crusades have been eruptions of apocalyptic millennial violence all over again, and again, and…
Bad ideas influence and validate bad behavior. According to the military guy often quoted here, until we deal with these root contributing factors of bad narrative ideas, we will not solve the problem of repeatedly erupting mass violence in our societies.
It is irresponsibly inexcusable to ignore the alternative that was given to us some 2 millennia ago by the wisdom sage Historical Jesus. His insight on deity as unconditional love points to the death of the old retributive, destroying deity and presents the opportunity for rebirth into the stunning new theology of an unconditional deity to center our narratives. The discovery of Jesus, that God was a non-retaliatory, unconditional deity, urges us to embrace the disintegration of the old and reintegration around the entirely new. The Jesus insight takes us to the highest reach of human meaning and purpose in no conditions love, the authentic definition of our highest ideal of love.
A full list of alternative themes to shape human narratives around the new cohering center of unconditional deity:
Humanity’s worst ideas, better alternatives (Old story themes, new story alternatives).